MARTIN: So here we are, well into our second year of this pandemic. And there is not a nationwide surge, but COVID-19 is still spreading. It's affecting daily activities. How should we think about that? I mean, I think that, you know, some people are saying, this is what it's going to be like. This is the new normal.

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WACHTER: Yeah. I think I'm increasingly in that boat. And to make clear, I don't think that's a good new normal. I'd love us to be in a place where COVID was receded as a part of our lives and we were back to 2019. But I think it's increasingly clear that that's not likely to happen, that this is going to be with us for the foreseeable future. And we're going to be on this roller coaster where cases go up, and then they come down, and then they go up again.

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